Running With The Devil

Funny, and I've just abandoned IE completely for nightly builds of Mozilla over the past 3 months. Both on my Windows machine and my OS X laptop.
I'd like to see a few examples of web sites that “show up completely incorrect” in Mozilla. I'm not denying that they're out there, but I just don't see any in my daily carousing.
Oh, and yes, I'm saying 'Mozilla' and not 'Netscape' because I don't want to touch a 'Netscape' branded release until Mozilla has reached 1.0.
Your Mileage May Vary.

Opera 6 is my most used browser, nice feature set, good security features, works well for all but a few IE centric sites. (sometimes I run IE and Opera simultaneously, side by side) Mozilla also a decent browser, as noted in previous comment. Thanks for dumping netscape 4.7, a pain for webmasters. (Just ancient by now)

All your base are belong to us

On a more serious note, I was never a Netscape fan, it just didnt feel comfortable for me. But being a webdesigner I keep several browsers on my computer, and the only complaint which I have against Opera is some errors it has in handling CSS.
I'm just an IE guy

Don't give up so early. Microsoft still sucks and Gozilla is based on open software which is what it is all about.

Down with Netscape.

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The reason that some sites don't appear correctly in Netscape is because Internet Explorer is designed to allow sloppiness in HTML code. In IE, if you don't close off a tag then the page still displays, if you don't use the correct format for HTML tags then IE will still display your page ok, and will “correct” it for you. As most people design sites by checking them in IE only, this allows them to make mistakes.
You may think that's a good thing, but it encourages sloppy code. You can't do that with programming languages like C, C++, C#, Java, or even BASIC. Microsoft developers are world-reknowned for being sloppy coders, I expect IE was designed this way for their own benefit.
Anyway, if the site looks wrong in Netscape/Mozilla, then the Web developer is crap. Bite me! Microsoft has made non-standard a standard!
Anyway, I think the dork who wrote the snippet was mistaken. It's IE6 that's currently getting chewed for displaying the pages “wrong” (wow, Microsoft are becoming standardized!!!). Netscape/Mozilla code rendering hasn't changed in any dramatic way. I say people should pay more attention!

Eek…..man you have issues. Netscape sucks! The whole world can't be wrong dude.

I don't care if you love IE, Mozilla, or your goat. You can hate Netscape/Mozilla because of it's performance compared with IE, but don't start whining that it doesn't display correctly!
Most of the “whole world” doesn't know anything about coding standards, that's why they think Netscape's rendering sucks. Hell, the world went for the VHS video format when BetaMax was 10 times better… the whole world can't be wrong? Bad argument.
I wish people would think about what they write before they write it, I'm sick to death of a bunch of amateurs teaching people crap. And I'm sick of all the people who just believe it.

EeK!, obviously you have never tried to code a table with dotted or solid borders in Netscape then. And CSS text codes can get screwed, too. My blog's font size varies greatly from IE to Netscape. Although I always make sure my sites appear in Netscape, rarely do they appear properly vs. other browsers against IE. (And don't think I'm defending IE either. I have long been a vocal critic.)

It's funny that you're sick of folks teaching people crap. Look in the mirror because you don't know what you're talking about with regard to IE6. IE6 will operate in a strict standards compliance mode and also in a quirkier one. IE6 does not support as much CSS2 as Mozilla but that's really about it. You're also blurring the Netscape issue as the original post was mainly about 4.x and only had one throwaway line about 6. 6.1 sucked and that is most likely where the dog comment springs from. 6.2 is better and Mozilla is even better still. Mozilla and therefore NS6 are not done deals though. If you think that there is much in the way of comparison between NS4 and NS6's respective HTML and CSS renderers then you are deluded.
NS4 CSS bugs:
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html#NN4
NS6 CSS bugs:
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/mozilla.html
Bit of a difference there.
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/14/index0a.html?tw=authoring
IE 6 and standards compliance.
And remember that if you want to cite the latest and greatest Mozilla as the gold standard then the latest version of IE should come into play too.

I guess Mosaic just doesn't cut it anymore…

Eek!, your a moron who has no clue what hes talking about. Your totaly wrong about the automatic error fixing that IE does, sure that gets rid of errors, but thats a good thing!!!
—-and!!—-
There are many other issues that cause problems in netscape such as tables. You have problems man. Lets face it, Microsoft might suck, but IE is a very nice browser and Netscape it THE worst. And if im wrong, look at what experts like Chris Pirillo have to say! …moron

i hate MS as much as the next girl, but my GOD my life would be so much damn eaiser if everyone would just give up the old netscape ghost. even opera's better, but it has some javascript issues that even the opra developers admit they haven't resolved yet.
IE is the best browser out right now for a PC running Windows. this is a vast majority. having to code for however many browsers may be nice for the billable hours, but it requires lots & lots of advil.

Eek is correct to some degree. It is true that if you fail to close certain tags, IE will “make the assumption” for you, displaying it properly in IE but looking quite hammered in Netscape. While that may be the cause of angst among hobbyist web designers, those who work in the field experience many of the problems described by the previous posters.
If you've got a good web graphic designer who knows how to piece together a design in HTML, you CAN make your “wrapper” or “graphical theme” look the same in Netscape as it looks in IE, but it takes some serious effort. You have to be prepared to throw up your hands with regard to stylesheets, though. There is just no way in hell to duplicate all stylesheet effects in Netscape 4.7+ that you'll get in IE, and that's a good enough reason for me to stop using the browser. Someone who makes heavy use of CSS, like Chris for example, can't please the Netscape users.
Though the newest versions of Netscape support SOME of the new CSS standards, they STILL don't support them all. Since only less than 2% of browsers on my sites use Netscape 6+, it's a moot point anyway.

Well, call it the accomplishment of the century, but I managed to write an entire site that is XHTML 1.1 valid, and it renders identically in Mozilla, NS 6, and IE 5.5 and higher.

Andy (who said I don't know what I'm talking about, but obviously doesn't himself) said “And remember that if you want to cite the latest and greatest Mozilla as the gold standard then the latest version of IE should come into play too.”
That's what I mean by this: “It's IE6 that's currently getting chewed for displaying the pages “wrong” (wow, Microsoft are becoming standardized!!!).”
Standards are a good thing.
I think this link from Andy basically said exactly what I'm talking about:
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/14/index0a.html?tw=authoring
The only problem I have is that IE still allows you write sloppy HTML, I don't think this is the way to go at all. Microsoft should stick completely to standards. Whatever Microsoft decides to add to IE will become standard (even bugs), not by a verified standard, but because so many people use IE.
P.S. :
http://www.webstandards.org/upgrade/
Read the bit about Netscape 6.2 – “…which may be the most compliant of all current browsers.”

Several years ago, I used Netscape exclusivly. I did not care for IE. However, once I started learning HTML and started playing around with making websites for fun, I decided to use both IE and Netscape to check my pages. It worked wonders. Many times the page displayed just fine in one browser, but not the other. I would then take a closer look at the HTML and Java and make the necessary changes to allow the pages to do what I wanted them to do in both browsers. Of course, both browsers have changed so much, since I first started my for fun websites, that now many of the pages no longer work like they used to. Once AOL bought out Netscape, I knew they were in trouble. I switched my default browser to IE, but I still use Netscape to check my websites.

I'm using Netscape 6.2 @ work (for browsing and for email) on WinNT and I'm quite pleased with it. At home it's mozilla all the way…

Oh, dear, Eek! perhaps you missed this when you looked around over at webstandards:
'IE6 for Windows delivers fine support for HTML 4, CSS-1, and other important W3C standards. DonÂ’t worry if you donÂ’t know what that means; the people who build your websites know. The browser is available free of charge.”
Oh and you selectively quoted that WS says that NS 6.2 is the best browser. Here's the truth:
“It [NS6] is based on the standards–compliant Gecko engine and open–source Mozilla, which supports AIX, Linux, Win32, Mac OS, OpenVMS, HPUX, and FreeBSD, and which may be the most compliant of all current browsers.”
NS 6 lags a bit behind Mozilla.
Again you are being disengenuous when you take a page that says IE6 will either render a page in strict (standards) mode or quirky (non-standard) and somehow say that IE6 will not display pages correctly. At the least back up that specific allegation. All it takes to make IE6 strict is the proper doctype at the top of the markup, which is what the W3C recommends anyway.
Some (not all though) of the non-standard html that IE will accept is because it also is a file system browser and file system conventions are not the same.
Now I am not saying that IE6 is perfect, it does have some known bugs and Microsoft are working on them though one can disagree with the pace and priority of those efforts. But you're fooling yourself if you think that Mozilla and NS are bug free.
You are also fooling yourself if you think that the browser wars are still the biggest game in town. While there is a wee bit of merit in talking about which browser supports the most CSS2, the bigger war is to get folks to actually use valid CSS and HTML. Just look at Dave Winer's recent spate of clueless comments about CSS. Getting the authouring tools to code correct is the new frontline. Keep in mind that browsers may render non standard HTML but something else made the code in the first place.

Chris,
I started with a shell account in 1993 and then my ISP finally offered me Netscape version 1.0 to see what I was missing. The blazing speed of 9600k could not help Netscape then and a broadband connection today makes Netscape painful.
Thank you for hosting Screen Savers last night (President's Day).

Hey everyone go here for a funny picture of chris:
http://www.lilivonschtupp.com/html/uw.htm

Andy, LOL!
I read every bit of that page, I didn't mention the bit about IE6 because I didn't need to. Are you blind? Didn't you notice that I agreed that IE6 is now starting to follow standards? Dude? Are you listening? Yoo-hoo!
You said, “Some (not all though) of the non-standard html that IE will accept is because it also is a file system browser and file system conventions are not the same.” Dude, that doesn't excuse the correcting and rendering of incorrect code! Like I said before, it was probably designed that way because the Microsoft coders are so sloppy, designed to hide their mistakes.
Netscape 6.2 is based on Mozilla code, Mozilla is “constantly” being updated, the Netscape browser isn't updated so frequently, so yes it does lag behind Mozilla. Was there a particular reason you mentioned that? Or do you just like chatting? By the way, I use Mozilla. I don't use Netscape.
I'm fooling myself if I think Netscape and Mozilla are bug free? Where the hell did that come from? Dude, they're riddled with bugs!
I'm fooling myself if I think the browser wars are the biggest game in town? Hell, dude, you assume too much! And who cares anyway? Why the hell do you mention these blind assumptions of what I think? Are you desperate to try and win this argument or something?
And concerning your ramblings about CSS, “the bigger war is to get folks to actually use valid CSS and HTML”, well if IE only supported the standard then people would have to start using it.

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hey eEk!! why dont you shut the FU*K up!! @$$hole!! your so wrong and annoying.

Eeks a moron!

LOL! Somebody has no arguments to prove me wrong so they decide to post two comments pretending to be two different people. Did you think that with two posts I'd possibly believe you?
Truth hurts. : )

Funny. It looked like Chris' page here the other day. Now it appears to be the EeK! bashers page. Grow up guys! Use what you want. I hate Nutscrape too but I'm among the many who are ADULT enough to let others voice their viewpoints without condemning them. Get your own page for that. Hate to have WWIII start over a battle of opinions over something as trivial as what browser is the best. Jeeze…

Well Brian, this is a comments section where people can post what they want. If Chris has a problem with it then he can nuke a post or the entire set of comments. It may be ADULT where you stand to be a simplistic relativist but there are plenty of adults with backbones out there. Hate to have no debate because you obviously don't understand the nature of online discourse.
As for Eek!, there really is little point in reading your latest jottings as you dance all around the fact that IE 6 will be standards compliant and reject incompliant code if you code correct. It's clear that you can't let go of your dislike of Microsoft. You can hate everything Microsoft does but don't expect that not to be noted by those who can judge the merits of competing browsers and the larger scheme of things in an adult manner.

Adult manner, Andy? Why, don't you realize that you're acting like a kid yourself? Are you in denial?
A dislike of Microsoft doesn't change the fact that their allowing of mistakes in code is bad practice. It appears that your love of Microsoft has blinded you to some plain truths, e.g. Microsoft has encouraged the standard of non-standard HTML. So anybody who makes a browser that's 100% standards compliant still won't stand a chance against winning people over from IE. People will use IE to veiw the pages that only look correct in IE. It's a monopolistic practice. No matter how good IE is, the beast behind it sucks. And for that matter, Andy, my friend (figure of speech), so do you. :P

Actually I DO see the nature of online discourse but from where I stand badgering each other accomplishes little. Comments and suggestions should be posted and people can make of them what they will. The back and forth tossing of slander is what makes most of these types of forums get out of hand. Just look at the people on http://www.betanews.com who have been arguing about the AOL vs. Trillian issue for the last couple of weeks. Not only have they totally strayed away from the actual subject, but they also have made themselves out to look like idiots because half of them are just grasping at straws to see if they can get the last word in edgewise whether what they're saying makes sence or not. Now it's just a bunch of name calling and is serving little purpose since one has to spend a lot of time reading through the trash to actually find an occasional decent comment that pertains to the original issue the forum was started for. What is accomplished by doing this? By the way, I'm not satisfied with XP or IE6 or Netscape. I'm just a poor little old home PC user who actually once worked for Microsoft (I apologize for Me – I had NOTHING to do with it) and I still use Windows 98SE and IE5.5 because IT WORKS BEST FOR ME. Use what works best for you and enjoy!

Okay this is the last comment from me as the original post has now fallen off the front page. Now perhaps I'm just jaded from too much IRC and time spent at other online fora but this discussion is hardly slanderous and, to me at least, still seems positively mild to me. Now a lot of online discourse, and for some it may be far too much, is pure contention. This thread is no different and seeing as it is a spin-off of some venting about Netscape 4.7, I would say that it really hasn't wandered away from the original topic too much.
As for Eek!, your petulant teenage solipsism is amusing. I will briefly note that Netscape has introduced it's share of proprietary extensions to HTML. I can almost see your lame rebuttal along the lines of “I know but didn't want to mention that”. Your love of puerile Microsoft bashing along with the ironic use of embrace and extend tactics with regard to the word and legal concept of monopoly show that no matter what the birth certificate says, adulthood is still a ways away. Oh and here's hoping the next time you have to ad-hom someone due to the monotonous M.O. failing yet again that you find the strength to lose the patently obvious ironic appeal to friendship as the use of such a tired device indicates a weak character.

Yawn… so now you're comparing proprietary extensions to the automatic correction of errors at run-time (so to speak)?
You know what else? All these opinions you have of me are based on your anger towards what I said, and they're purely blind assumptions (either that or they're based on a set of rules that you've made up that indicate a particular attribute to somebody's character). Why waste time trying to analyze my character anyway? What does it have to do with Netscape or IE?
All throughout this thread you've attempted to blindly accuse me of things that I never said, and never would say. This indicates a weak argument, regardless of your character — which (now that we mention it) appears as though you're a grumpy 50 year old, split up from his wife, high stress levels, overweight, and fearful of the future. How's that for a blind assumption? Are you used to having people back down to everything you say? Does this hurt your ego?
Learn to chill out dude!