Leopard vs. Windows Vista

Wow - “Time Machine” looks amazing. I’d pay $149 for that feature alone.

IMHO Mac OS X upgrades have generally been worth more to me than I’ve paid for them. I agree that Leopard looks like it will continue that string. Plus..in addition to all of the features you mention above, there are unannounced Leopard features that Steve was not ready to talk about.

I’m with you I think. I’ve been a Microsoft loyalist for a long time… but I’m starting to feel like I’m being a bit short-changed with Vista. For me, it’s more about the price tag than anything else. I don’t necessarily think that Tiger is worth the price tag - but I also think that someone’s out of their mind to think that I’m going to pay $300+ on each machine I own to upgrade to the latest and greatest version of Vista. C’mon MS!?

I’m not ready to become a full-time Mac user yet, but every day it seems like a more likely scenario.

“What he said”

and an AMEN to go with it!!

Here is a bit of thought, how many pay upgrades has Apple put out since the original XP was released? A lot of people like to tout Apple releasing 4 (or is it 5?) upgrades in the time MS has done one but doesn’t that mean someone that kept on the Apple upgrade path paid what, $500 to $800 more for the “upgrade” to Leopard? I’m assuming most people paid for every upgrade, that’s just how those Apple people are.

Microsoft is big and evil for trying to lock PC vendors into an agreement, while Apple is joy and harmony for locking people into their hardware/OS bundle. Microsoft’s FairPlay DRM is another fascist attempt to control our lives while the iTunes/iPod lockstep can be ignored because it’s so puurrrty. Microsoft bundles applications in the OS and they are stifling competition while Apple bundles the iStuff and they are saviours of productivity. Apple is just better at applying the lube.

I don’t see much difference between Leopard and Vista. On an OS level they both compete nicely and they both have some very annoying issues. Apple’s Time Machine and Vista’s Shadow Copy + Windows Backup are pretty much the same thing (and better in some cases) yet Apple knows how to name things, they have the art haus cool factor and they can make nice demos. I have to say the best sleight of hand is Leopard’s Spaces. I was honestly slack-jawed when I heard they were pimping a VWM as an actual big feature. That’s not a feature, that’s a freeware utility or even what you code up during a 101 class.

I understand people were expecting more from Vista for less money but how much more and for how much less? It’s funny, it seems as if people had such high hopes for Vista that when it falls short they turn on it in anger for having let them down. Vista does have it’s flaws, some major and the Microsoft marketing dept. screwed up by calling this an RC but I’ll put a case of Guinness on the fact that if you compare Leopard to Vista 6 months from now neither will be a clear victor over the other and people will continue to buy their OS mostly based on emotion vs. technical merits. That really is Apple’s only advantage, they can get you to think about their products with your heart and turn off your brain as in the case of iTunes+iPod. They can make “Spaces” seem like rocket fuel while Microsoft has offered the same thing free for years as a tucked away, bland, beige, boring download. Yup, Apple is *much* better at applying the lube and it must be flavoured as well.

Chris, here is the question Brad should have asked:

“I challenge you to name what in Leopard makes it more worthy of my money than Vista?”

Shawn proves what is fundamentally wrong with the Windows mindset - they read a list of features off a piece of paper and call it a day. Apple understands implementation.

Watch the videos and see the difference between Time Machine and then go watch someone use Shadow Copy. If you can’t see a difference then you’re better off with Windows (or Linux).

so why does he talk about vista instead of leopard? So why aren’t you advocating apple.

OK … we get it you hate windows … you love Macs. Wow …haven’t heard that before. So quit writing about windows if you hate it so much. I use to like your blog for interesting insight on tech, now your just typical.

Time Machine? Waste of drive space. It’ll back up mostly stuff you don’t care about. Also, remember all the trouble people had with Spotlight? Slow computers, non indexing? That’s nothing compared to what will happen with this.

Mail updates? Who actually wants stationary? Everyone who would use RSS already does, and has their reader how they like it. And iCal already has todos.

iChat updates? Load of useless distractions. You’ll use each one once, say “cool,” and turn them back off. Oh, and good for Apple for discovering VNC.

Spaces? Just virtual desktops, like Linux and Windows have had forever. But this is Apple, so it’s innovative.

Dashcode? So now we’ll have even more useless widgets. Wonderful. Just what the world needs.

Spotlight? Most Mac users probably only have one Mac, so the network features are useless to them.

iCal? Congrats, it sucks a bit less.

Core animation? Great. More apps with things flying around the screen. Any developer who could use animation tastefully could do it with the tools they already had.

Boot Camp already exists. And it’s free.

This leaves us with “optimizations and tweaks.” $150 worth.

Why don’t they FTFF? (Google it.) Make the Terminal better (tabs, mouse support), so it isn’t easier to SSH to my Mac from GNOME. How about virtualization? Integration between X and Quartz? Any of those would be worth $150.

Get a real OS.

[...] Leopard vs. Windows Vista ~ Chris Pirillo Clash of the OS (tags: Windows Vista Mac Leopard) [...]

Well, Chris, with due respect you’ve sort of shot yourself in the foot with the “mom” standard here. Will mom get any benefit from these incremental improvements to the Mac?

64-bit? Only if mom is running more than 4G of RAM. Network searching? Version control & backup? Multiple desktops? My mom has her hands full with just one.

I mean, these are all fine things but none are revolutionary. Leopard’s features seem to be evenly split between power-user and cutesy-cosmetic. And existing versions of Windows do all of them, either built-in or through a third-party, though the Mac promises to make them simpler.

Mom already has most of it in Tiger. I am not sure she is begging for new backdrops on her iChat.

Hey, I am glad Apple is doing all this, and their implementations are always easy to use. They set a high standard. But if memory serves, Jobs once said that you have to be 5 times better to compete against a big incumbent.

are you paying any attention to what is being advertised/ displayed at the top of your website,

it’s not what i would expect to find at thetop of a website that has so much support from the industry,

i don’t thibk your vendors and sponsers are going to be happy

Rise of Nations Cd key

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he forgo total 64bit implementation not like Vista has..
Of course there may be lots of other things that appear in the final version of leopard and or Vista.. we have to wait. Apple did say that they had more secret things for Leopard that they didnt want to tell anyone yet and it seems are not in the beta..

Time will tell though on both fronts so we are all going to have to wait till both OS’s officially hit the shelfs

All you ever do now a days is to knock windows - it’s getting very tiring

Leopard Vs. Windows Vista by Chris Pirillo My name isn’t Chicken Little, and I’m certainly not alone in my belief that Leopard is far more compelling than Windows Vista.

Vista Mythbusters #3: Will Microsoft dump XP to push Vista?Chris Pirillo: Leopard vs. Windows Vista

“I’m assuming most people paid for every upgrade, that’s just how those Apple people are.”

“Most Mac users probably only have one Mac.”

“So quit writing about windows if you hate it so much.”

These days some Windows users really sound like angry clueless and smug Mac zealots. I find this quite disturbing.

Shane, I suspect we haven’t seen *everything* that will be added to Leopard - no mention of resolution independance for a start - and on the same note we haven’t seen everything that will be pulled from Vista.

Microsoft has been back-pedalling on features for the past 12 months in an effort to reduce the load and ensure they can deliver - Vista just ain’t what it used to be. I can’t see them *adding* anything.

One thing overlooked and going to the mom factor is that jobs said leopard will include the whole package - all of Apple’s apps/suites. vista includes nothing simular. Then there is the other as yet unannounced 60% of the leopard code base.

[...] If you think Windows rules the roost due to merit, you’ve got another thing coming. These days, PC doesn’t stand for personal computer as much as it stands for “personal choice.” Will you upgrade to Windows Vista when it’s released, or will you stick with your current OS until a few service packs have been issued? You’re going to have to think about it sooner or later - and the status quo isn’t going to help you make an informed decision. I don’t mind playing devil’s advocate with articles like Leopard vs. Windows Vista. That list was inspired by an email thread between myself and Stardock’s Brad Wardell. We’re prepping for the next GUI Olympics, ya know? He responded to my assertions:I don’t think that on their own those things really justify it. Some of the things you mention were part of Tiger.Which ones? :) Those are all new features. leopard, microsoft, operating system, os x, software, vista, windows, windows vista [...]

Since my iMac 600 SE Graphite recently died, I’m waiting for the new 2.16Ghz 20″ iMacs to arrive at my local Apple store next week. Tiger and Mac Office on the 600 was faster (IMHO) than WinXP/Office XP on a 2.2Ghz Dell. I can’t wait for Leopard… it will scream on a Dual Core and the added apps are much needed.

WinXP was released with 60,000 known bugs… I can’t imagine Microsoft will do any better with Vista. Even on a new Dell we got at work, with XP SR2, there are still over 80 security updates to download and install. Microsoft better check thier rear view mirror… Apple is coming up fast and Leopard will be the beginning of the end for XP and Vista.

Mac users have already had their revolution in going from OS 9 to OS X (for $129) but the revolution was largely under the hood. The leap from XP to Vista was supposed to be revolutionary under the hood for Windows users but it certainly isn’t anymore.

Since OS X’s debut, every upgrade has be evolutionary. I don’t expect another revolution until we get to OS 11. On the supply side, the hardware to exact a revolution, although largely available, is not cheap enough. On the demand side, the current UI state doesn’t have users clamoring for a major change. In fact, most users are actually just beginning to grasp how to use the current UI and tools. So $129 or $399 buys you evolution not revolution.

The already announced Leopard features are a mix of things for the range of Mac users, either to make it easier to do the things that they want to or should do, or to make it easier to make better software for others. Time Machine/iCal/Mail/iChat/Spotlight are certainly there for mom and the average PC user. 64-bit is there for the high-end/scientific/creative user. Dashcode/Spotlight is there for the bit more advanced user. And Core Animation, which follows all the other “Core” pieces, is for the developer.

Hey, the goal of using a computer and an OS is to allow most people (not geeks) to get something done, whether it be communication, creation, consumption. And the Leopard (and even Vista) changes are supposed to be there to make it easier, safer, and quicker to do more and more. It’s not primarily there for geeks to say wow, what a feature; what a piece of technology. Sometimes a thing is both, but it doesn’t have to be for it to be worth money.

And that is where Vista, on balance, still falls short. There are improvements, but not enough, given the aging XP base it is starting from. Because Mac OS X has seen continual improvements over the last five years, less is expected each time around.

Starting from OS 10, there have been three upgrades (10.2, 10.3, 10.4) (10.1 was free), costing a non-discounted total of $387. With Leopard, the Mac path will be more expensive than the XP to Vista path. But the Mac user has had the opportunity to use the incremental advances during the last 5 years. Time and opportunity cost is worth money.

Here’s a thought:

People complain about the price. I won’t tell you I get it at $70 educational. But anyway.

How about staying back a version? 10.4 came out and you stayed at 10.3. 10.5 comes out and you pay $30 for 10.4!

How many of you are so cheap that you won’t pay $50 for a significant update? How do I know it’ll be about $50? 10.3 is $45 right now.

And for those of you who would be that cheap, same on you. ;)

End of story

Bot

I agree with exjay, Leopard is a useless piece of s*it just like exjay.

Um Chris, why is your “Windows Fanatics” site (channels.lockergnome.com/windows/) advertising piracy tools at the top of the page?

Xp Cd Key Generator

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Seems ironic that you’d be spending so much time talking about OS prices while at the same time advertising piracy tools.

Shawn, as far as the intervals of the OS releases goes, the only reason MS has not done that it’s simply because it could not. Apparently, they are to big for their own good and/or it’s to difficult to create an OS for so many different vendors due to legacy infrastructure.

I dont have an issue with paying $150 every 1.5 years for the advancement of Tech. Besides, I share the cost amongst a couple of friends by buying the $150 Family Pack that can install in 5 computers (and DOES NOT have REGISTRATION!). So if you divide $150 by 5 you get a total cost of about $30. I don’t think MS is in the ball park.

It’s not that Apple is better at the lube, it’s that MS is better with the eye band…

“Spaces? Just virtual desktops, like Linux and Windows have had forever. But this is Apple, so it’s innovative.”

Actually, Virtual Desktops existed on the Mac before Linux and Windows, as far back as 1986. Windows didn’t even exist back then. I don’t think Linux did either. It was done by Berkeley Systems, the guys who brought Flying Toasters and later, Moveon.org.

Wow, these comments never cease to amaze me. Pirillo has been the biggest windows fanboy around for years. If you have been following his work for long you would know that. I mean, he’s the only person I know who actually seems to like windows media player.

“Microsoft is big and evil for trying to lock PC vendors into an agreement, while Apple is joy and harmony for locking people into their hardware/OS bundle. Microsoft’s FairPlay DRM is another fascist attempt to control our lives while the iTunes/iPod lockstep can be ignored because it’s so puurrrty. Microsoft bundles applications in the OS and they are stifling competition while Apple bundles the iStuff and they are saviours of productivity.”

When has Pirillo ever had anything good to say about itunes or the ipod? When has he ever mentioned any of the apple “i” apps?

Service packs DO NOT equal security updates. Never have. There have always been bug fixes, functional changes and security updates as part of service packs.

As a general rule, the functional changes tend to be very limited to make it easier to get the fixes and updates that people need, but NO ONE should be waiting for a security update for critical fixes or security updates anyway.

I work for Microsoft. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think Time Machine is cool- of course it is. But the implication here is that Microsoft upgrades aren’t justified and Apple upgrades are- seems like a very unfair position.

Exjay and others who think TimeMachine will be a performance or hard drive hog, you are flat out wrong. TimeMachine does not, repeat, does not take up huge amounts of disk space. Anyone who knows even a bit about version control would understand this point.

Spotlight a performance hog? Ummm…not for me…ever…better get ones facts together.

I’ve been using Leopard since WWDC. It wasn’t the best, but pretty good. With the update a week ago, Leopard is, imho, almost ready for prime time. And the best part is that we only got what Apple wanted to show us and the rest of the world. Steve Jobs hinted there was much more to come.

Vista without WinFS IS a service pak.

Yup, the best thing about Windows is that you get to restart allot.

[...] A lot of comments in the article say they are unsubscribing because all he does is whine, but I think that is built into blogging, someone makes you mad or disapoints you and you blog about it, so a lot of blogs look like all they do is whine. Chris has been online in tech community for a long time, with Lockergnome, Tech TV and his many, many other projects, so he is usually a good resource. Looks like he has become, maybe has been, an Apple fan, in another article he lists some reasons why the $149 upgrade price is reasonable for Leopard, You *MUST* watch every single one of these Leopard videos to understand why I believe the price is completely justified. Apple issues security updates constantly (and no doubt will wrap them into Leopoard as well). This isn’t a service pack, dude. These are not trivial upgrades. You combine the features of this list with better parental control, seamless 64-bit compatibilities, wider accessibility, and… and… and… knowing that Apple will have another set of new, incremental, and system-wide upgrades in another couple years? Game over. [...]

So… how many times is Apple going to sell “64-bit” to you as a feature? Since we’re going on number 3 and all…

Are they at least going real 64-bit this time? And not pseudo-64-bit-via-PAE-for-console-apps-only?

I manage 600 PC’s and Macs and it’s abundantly clear to me that Apple’s OS development and upgrade model is vastly superior to Windows. I may have bought Tiger, but I’ve got 7 free OS upgrades since then and will probably get another 3-5 before Leopard ships. Leopard would be worth the upgrade price for the underlying code optimization and architecture improvements alone. When was the last time a Windows upgrade sped up your computer? OS upgrades will always have an element of controversy. Witness the chorus of Windows users who claim that Winows 2000 continues to be the best OS release Microsoft has produced. Mac OS X is notable for having a string of upgrades that most users felt were genuine improvements. I know I have.

Even if Windoze was FREE, i’d still flush it down the toilet because that’s exactly where that **** belongs.

Did it ever occur to you, that the improvements
left out of the previous OS upgrades, was intentional; so they could call the next one an
upgrade? I always come away with the feeling, that things being upgraded, should have been included in the previous upgrade. It makes you wonder if Apple is playing games and spoon feeding Mac users into believing they are getting something new, when actually it is old and should have been included with previous system upgrades. Like a vapor upgrade.

Where are people getting $149 from or that $129*3=over $700? Thus far, apple has only released 3 paid OS X updates.

Look. People who don’t pay for service packs are (by definition) people who don’t care if their computers are running like sh##. For these people, Windows is perfect.

[...] 1. Retail growth and potential 2. Still no respect in PC market 3. Design 4. Video growth 5. Mac Mini 6. Leopard - Don’t trust me on this but trust Chris Pirillo . 7. iTunes 8. Marketing prowess 9. Proliferation of wi-fi 10. Competition is overestimated and underwhelming [...]

“Did it ever occur to you, that the improvements
left out of the previous OS upgrades, was intentional; so they could call the next one an
upgrade?”

Oh, yeah, burke, let’s ignore the fact that OS X actually improves with every major and minor update. Since Tiger was first released, Mac users have gotten a steady stream of continual improvements. Are you saying there’s something wrong with that?

What exactly are you saying? We should wait around for 5 years for a browser with a pop-up blocker, to avoid the appearance of “stacking the deck” with continual OS improvements?

Exactly why does Microsoft need 5 years to update IE with a pop-up blocker?

Now that’s a GREAT strategy!

Get your head out of the sand - Apple has OS development right, regardless of whether Vista sucks or is the next sliced bread. Major releases every 18-24 months, with continual minor updates that improve performance, security, and fix bugs in between. CONTINUAL improvement.

And for all you jokers who still like the comfort of a sand pit - if Apple has only been releasing “service packs” via 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4, what exactly are you saying? That Apple had an OS that was a challenge to Vista 5 years ago? Because according to your logic, if Tiger and Panther were service packs, that means there’s no need to compare Vista to Leopard at all! We should just write about “Puma vs. Vista” instead, since Puma basically should be feature-equivalent to Leopard by your service pack logic.

Or maybe what’s happening is your trying to justify Vista’s overly long gestation period by taking it out on all the major upgrades that Apple has been able to push out over the last 5 years. All I can say is, with that major case of denial, it will be scary to see where OS X is at in 5 years compared to Windows….

Hey Brandon P, what’s so great about the Windows 64-bit? How are those 32-bit apps working? How are those 64-bit drivers coming along?

[...] Chris, yesterday, wrote a post on how he feels that Linux’s GNOME running XGL is far better than the UI in Windows Vista. He encouraged folks to download and try out the technology themselves and see what he is talking about. He’s also discussed in a comparison as to why OS X “Leopard” is better than Windows Vista. And after his Alaskan vacation, he comes back and calls the recently released RC1 of Windows Vista a “piece of Sith”. [...]

Tawky Tawny, you really should re-read what I said, in no way what you quoted of mine do I imply anything negative about Apple users. Apple users tend to follow the upgrade path because usually there are quite a few new cool additions to the OS. Since they are usually a passionate crowd they will find the extra dosh for the OS upgrade. Of course there are the times that Apple users *must* upgrade as in the time my friend was forced to upgrade to Tiger because the version of Final Cut Pro that supported his camera only ran on Tiger.

Nick, you’ve saying the exact same thing I said, that Apple understands how to present and implement certain concepts so I don’t really see how you can use my comment as any type of “Ah Ha” about the Windows mindset.

Dorian, my point about OS upgrades was not to compare whether Microsoft could/should have done matching ones, only that now that they are releasing one it seems to be on par with what OSX has become after several upgrades. Regardless of which corner you’re in Vista and Leopard are in the same weight category and can finally be compared in a fair fight. Fanboys on either side will disagree but I see them as equals, each with a different style. I never called into question Microsoft’s lack of interval OS releases, that’s already a fact.

jccalhoun, the bit about me ranting against Evil Microsoft, Good Apple wasn’t to allude to anything Chris has said but I can see how what I wrote appeared that way. It was all done to setup a single point, that Apple’s true ability is in how they package and present concepts to the people. In other words, good lube :)

That in a way was the bigger message in my comment, that Leopard and Vista are actually very close in terms of functionality, it’s just that Apple has a way of presenting and sometimes implementing concepts in a way that impassions people. I say sometimes because really the iTunes interface was a joke until this new version 7 *yet* a lot of people still found it to be a work of art because of that Apple Pixie Dust.

Lastly I happen to *love* all the fire Chris is tossing at Microsoft. Humans and companies often do better with competition and Microsoft hasn’t had any serious threats for a long time. They need to feel the heat and in fact I hope Leopard captures a larger share of the market. I hope more credible people find valid faults with RC1 and that more people start buying MacBooks so laptop designers realize we want some style with our computing.

As a Microsoft partner, I have had the opportunity to speak to MS software engineers. They tell me that when Vista comes out, it will be behind Tiger, let alone Leopard. It will take years before they can catch up if they can.

Our own studies tell us that the Mac OS is thousands of dollars more productive annually than XP. Analysis of TOC (total operating cost) puts Windows computer at 300-400% more costly than Macs.

There is a reason that the market share for Macs is increasing significantly. The combination of better productivity and less cost is tough to beat.

Going back to the comments that MS is accused of stealing but Apple is innovative, simply put. I don’t have a problem whatsoever with MS including all the apps they desire by default on the OS. Apple can do it to and does.

What I do have a problems with, is when MS makes it’s apps the only apps that can do this or that and/or does not allow any other vendor to do this or that.

As long as I can run any other app on the machine without having stability issues caused by my OS having restrictions against vendors, then I really don’t care what they do…

MS when to great lenghts to tell hardware vendors NOT to install Netscape… and that is the issue.

Shawn, I believe you are contradicting yourself. From what I recall, you were saying that apple makes you spend $ on yearly upgrades and that this is costing us $. But from what I just read, your point is that MS is up to par with Apple and this makes it ok, while at the same time saying that it’s a fact that MS was behind the OS updates.

Again, i’m all for updates. I have one life to live and whatever company gets the furthest in technology the fastest, has my vote and my $.

Going back to the comments where MS is accused of stealing but Apple is innovative, simply put. I don’t have a problem whatsoever with MS including all the apps they desire by default on the OS. Apple can do it to and does.

What I do have a problems with, is when MS makes it’s apps the only apps that can do this or that and/or does not allow any other vendor to do this or that.

As long as I can run any other app on the machine without having stability issues caused by my OS having restrictions against vendors, then I really don’t care what they do…

MS went to great lenghts to insure that hardware vendors did NOT install Netscape… and that is the issue.

Mark, right on the - well - Mark!

exjay,

you have some observation issues. please take care of them before writing again.

I use ichat all the time to communicate visually with people living 4k miles away. just because you don’t use it, dosen’t mean other people don’t.

The same applies for just about everything else you said. Wake up!

I’ve also been a huge MS fan, and still am. But I’m pretty sure when Leopard comes out, I will be getting a new MacBook. My biggest hesitation is that in my opinion, I feel that MS has the better development platform. I have been developing with .Net (C#) for the past 3-4 years and love it. I had an iBook about a year ago and played around with Coca, but I till think the .Net platform is better. And not just the .Net platform, but the Windows Platform in general. Especially with the upcoming WPF/WCF/WWF. Basically, I really like Mac OS for life but Windows for development. I’m so glad that Parallels works so well on Mac OS X.

success on the desktop, plain and simple. I would think that, being a savvy businessman, Chris would understand this. Personally, I think Chris has a lot of valuable things to say. As well founded as his UI gripes may be, his feedback on Vista would be far more valuable if he accepted the reality of the situation and focused on problems that actually stand a chance of getting fixed at this point in the game. Acknowledging the fact that Microsoft has made huge

success on the desktop, plain and simple. I would think that, being a savvy businessman, Chris would understand this. Personally, I think Chris has a lot of valuable things to say. As well founded as his UI gripes may be, his feedback on Vista would be far more valuable if he accepted the reality of the situation and focused on problems that actually stand a chance of getting fixed at this point in the game. Acknowledging the fact that Microsoft has made huge

[...] A reality check for Vista money.cnn.com Found 9 days ago Judging by the grief that Microsoft is getting over delays in the release of Windows Vista, and the buzz surrounding the price it plans to charge for the next generation operating system, you’d think we were all hankering to get our hands on this hot new piece of software. Tagged: Leopard vs. Windows Vista chris.pirillo.com Found 9 days ago As you can imagine, I’ve been involved with countless Windows Vista email threads over the past few days. One of them is with Stardock’s own Brad Wardell (a good friend of mine). He tried to hit me with the classic “I don’t pay for service packs” argument when discussing Apple’s impending Leopard upgrade. … Permalink Clientside upgrade rate weblogs.macromedia.com Found 9 days ago Clientside upgrade rate: Owen Thomas, in Business 2.0, on possible Vista adoption rates: “Microsoft gets more than 80 percent of its $13 billion in annual Windows revenue from PC makers, who install the operating system on new PCs. … Permalink Boycott Vista and Office kairosnews.org Found 8 days ago Over at CNN Money, Business 2.0 Magazine writer Owen Thomas discusses the hype concerning Vista and the excessive amount of time and money spent on its development. The conclusion? So here’s a modest proposal: … Permalink What if Microsoft hadn’t bothered with Vista? hunterstrat.com Found 9 days ago Today at Business 2.0 Magazine , Owen Thomas steps back from the hustle and bustle and offers A reality check for Vista . In a nutshell, the argument is that Vista isn’t going to change the fact that with relatively few exceptions, most everyone buys a new PC operating system when they buy a new PC and “the version of Windows that those retail customers have on their PC hardly figures into the equation. … Permalink The meme spreads bobmorris.wordpress.com Found 9 days ago CNN Money says ‘Boycott Vista.’ Permalink [...]

None of those features look upgrade worthy to me. And a lot of your listed look like you ripped the from apple.com

* Time Machine (amazing interface, long overdue)
Windows Backup?
* Mail updates (To Do, Notes, Stationery, RSS - Outlook killer)
..Windows/Live Mail? Not to mention few use desktop mail anyways.
* iChat (live video backdrops, photobooth effects, screen sharing)
Wow, eye candy, real useful.
* Spaces (awesome virtual desktop behaviors)
..
* Dashboard (Dashcode, .Mac syncing)
Dev tool..
* Spotlight (search Macs on your network, inline preview)
Yeah since file search is really that important
* iCal (CalDAV support, auto schedule, event dropbox)
Event dropbox? Wow..
* Core Animation (for developers who understand design)
Dev tool
* Boot Camp (’nuff said)
Windows people won’t ever need a mac, mac users do need Windows.
* Other optimizations and tweaks (combined)
…

Basically, you’ve listed tons of features that Vista also has, developer tools, and filler(optimizations/tweaks)

Not saying Vista is better(or worse), but the Mac OS X upgrades continue to look weaker and weaker.

[...] Teletubbyland, aka "Bliss" on WinXP, DEFAULT Desktop. Please excuse me while I puke. Also, to add to the discussion, this guy is slowly making his way around on OS X Leopard. He hates Vista almost as much as Shanestah, but his reasoning is definitely very sound. Plus, I think ppl need to see what OSX Leopard does (ie no drastic changes to the interface, which was PERFECTLY FINE before) and he links to some stuff that is going to (hopefully) blow some of you away. BJ __________________ "Winter nights Wii sang in tune/played inside the months of moon…" "We don’t want our friends in Redmond to start their photocopiers just yet." — Steve Jobs [...]

[...] Why Vista’s UI Isn’t Cooler, or Take a Deep Breath Chris Posted Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:58 AM by Robert McLaws | 11 Comments Filed under: User Interface Larry Osterman (ya, the same Larry Osterman that got bit by the Audio bug) has a great post on why XGL isn’t as useful as Chris Pirillo thinks it is. Can you imagine the tech support calls from the receptionist at XYZ Paper Company in Diluth, complaining that her app keeps crashing when it’s really on the other side of the “desktop cube”? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: OS X can afford to take creative liberties with it’s OS’ visual stylings because a) most of its users are right-brained creative types that value visual appearance over usefulness, b) its userbase is so small that drastic changes only have minimal overall impact, and c) even fewer businesses rely on Macs, so the retraining issues there are minimal as well. The bottom line is, pretty does not always equal practical. Plus, Microsoft has other considerations, like the financial impact of UI changes on companies adopting their software. (Too bad calculating this impact is not as simple as it was in 1995). The Windows UI is the victim of Microsoft’s monopoly success on the desktop, plain and simple. I would think that, being a savvy businessman, Chris would understand this. Personally, I think Chris has a lot of valuable things to say (and while singling out Chris, I’m also speaking to other UI detractors as well). As well founded as his UI gripes may be, his feedback on Vista would be far more valuable if he accepted the reality of the situation and focused on problems that actually stand a chance of getting fixed at this point in the game. Acknowledging the fact that Microsoft has made huge strides in the fit & finish department might also be appropriate. Share this post [...]

I have been listening to and reading about the Vista v. Tiger argument, and I know this thread is pretty well played out, but I would like to add a couple of observations. disclaimer- I have used Mac for 20 years, and have never bought an upgrade. I just use what they give me.

Windows enthusiasts tend to see
1. a beautiful presentation as a negative.
2. an integrated system that simply works as inflexibility.
3. the ability to play with the hardware as more fun than playing with the software.

I teach history, and see Windows as Henry Ford’s Model T Ford that one could attach saws, mixers, shellers and other tools to, but that did not upgrade for more than a decade. “You can get any color you want, as log as it’s black,” is more a Windows world- uncreative and inflexible. But once good quality cars were produced that were comfortable and reliable, Ford had to upgrade or die. Hence Vista.

When I was a kid my friend’s dad was a WWII vet technician who sat on the floor and played with his LaFayette radio kits; I think he would have loved Windows for the 13 million different combinations of plugs, wires and chips he could play with. My father spent his time listening to the radio.

Cute story- as I was “working” on iPhoto I noticed a button for “slideshow”, so I made one of vacation pix. Then I saw I could make it into a movie, so I did. Then I saw I could make THAT into a DVD, so I did.

Yeah, I was just wasting my time- except now I can make a resource for my kids just by clicking about six times and letting the computer work in the background.

Better yet, the kids can, too. And have- of the Depression, WWII, urban growth, etc.

And I have not used a nickel of outside software, because I’m just a Mac guy who uses what’s on the computer. (That’s not exactly true- I bought iWork and Quicktime Pro for a total of under $100.)

But I did have the worst reported disaster reported for Apple- my new MacBook suddenly began shutting off.

So I called the provider of EVERY piece of hardware and software on my computer- Apple- and drove six miles to their store. It was fixed in six days. no questions.

See? I never had to learn how to make a computer work- it just does. And I do what I want to do, and get “creative” because i am tempted to. But when my Windows friends start using technocal acroymns I don’t impress them at all, because I don’t know computers.

Like most people.

[...] If you think Windows rules the roost due to merit, you’ve got another thing coming. These days, PC doesn’t stand for personal computer as much as it stands for “personal choice.” Will you upgrade to Windows Vista when it’s released, or will you stick with your current OS until a few service packs have been issued? You’re going to have to think about it sooner or later - and the status quo isn’t going to help you make an informed decision. I don’t mind playing devil’s advocate with articles like Leopard vs. Windows Vista. [...]

I have been using Windows since windows 95 graced the PC. I’m not a ‘fanboy’ or anything, but I prefer to building my own machines than buying one from dell or someone. History out of the way, I don’t see what the big deal is with the windows vs apple thing. they are in buisiness for different reasons. If apple has an advantage that windows doesn’t have. Windows has to take into consideration location and hardware variances that Apple doesn’t. OsX runs on pc, but performance sucks. Imagine if they had the headache Microsoft has trying to make an os compatible with current and future hardware and software. If they released OSX on PC I would get it. In a perfect world, microsoft could rewrite windows from scratch and say hey, we are focused on the future, forget your old software, this is a new OS. But in reality nothing is perfect. They can’t abandon their legacy codebase.

I never owned an apple machine, because of the cost and lack of game support. But those people who keep saying that they aren’t paying for service packs or have issues with the upgrades, I have one thing to say. DON”T BUY IT. You have a functional OS, and not having the latest and greatest is not going to kill ya ! ) Tiger is great and works so if you don’t have Supercat or which ever os they push next it won’t matter.

This talk of macs are for creative folks is ****. You can find equal software for both. From my experience t hough its not that apple knows how to apply the lube, its that they seem to keep simplicity of use in mind, and make the feature (whatever it is) functional and perty. XP is not a bad os, and I have no reason to jump on the vista bandwagon.
Vista does improve in alot of ways that regular users can appreciate. WHo cares if the fonts don’t match. Only a self proclaimed usability expert would give two cents about that. Some people hate the new start menu, I love it. Some hate the glass look, I love it. The help and support has been vastly improved in my opinion. I actually used it a couple times, and on xp i’ve never touched it because it doesn’t fix my problems, my help and support is GOOGLE.com. The only thing I wish was that microsoft added these features as updates to xp instead.

DON”T Compare apples to oranges. they are both OS’s but they don’t have the same problems to contend with. Look at apple. ‘classic’ programs won’t work unless you have 9 installed. If MS did that, OMG, no matter how much they improved on the OS, people would have a heart attack.

To add I did tech support for a company that had some old software and people would call in stessed out because their old stuff doesn’t work on the new pc. Thank god for compat mode or these users would demand we upgrade our software and/or Microsoft work some magic to get it to work.

This debate will go on forever. Not that I mind I really. I enjoy the witty banter and the sometimes less than dignified name calling and OS bashing. I use both plattforms OS X tiger 10.4.2 and XP sp2. I just upgraded from panther to tiger last week (lol didn’t even realize I was running the older version that was preinstalled when I discovered the back up CD didn’t match) and I must say the dashboard widgets are pretty neat. I also upgraded my pc to IE 7 and media player 11 and ordered the vista rc1 cd. I should get a peak at this vista business early this week. I have to say that I love the new flashier look of Vista and it does remind me of OS X.

I don’t care if they copied. It works out for me. Isn’t anyone else greedy like me? I love that Apple and Microsoft one up each other, and steal idease from one another. It just makes them both better. I’m not saying we all need to hold hands and sing kum ba ya or anything. I am just saying are none of the switchers running both plattforms on thier new macintels? That was the whole point of those commecrials right. I do agree with someone from above that pc users are starting to sound as defensive as mac people and I’m sure those commecrials had something to do with it. Oh yeah and seriously stop with the Apple to Oranges analogy it is so trite.

The real question is why can’t I have it all. I want to pick any hardware I want and put any and all OS’s I want. I would like it all to be “pretty” and I need it all to work. If you are sittiing there with a macbook pro with a double boot running tiger and vista let me know cause I would be jealous.

OK…. so what’s the “Big Deal” all about in this debate?

Buy a Mac, and you can run both OS’s without any probs at all.

I Have been using Mac’s for 6 years now. I was not a huge fan of the Apple computers until OS X was released. I like the functionality of the OS much more than Windows. I Personally use what works best for me. I like the fact that if i need to do something it is only a couple of clicks a way and not a certification. if i want to do a wireless network for gaming I click 2 times and i am done. If i want it secure I click 3. For the majority of daily things it is simpler faster and inturn more productive on a Mac. I am interested to see how Vista fares but from what I have seen I don’t see myself going back to MS anytime soon. Some people say I would rather build my own. Yes it is fun to do, but what happens when something breaks you have to figure out what it is and then send it back to the manufacturer to get fixed. With mine again it is reliable and it something goes wrong after all it is a peice of electronics, I can just take it to the apple store or drop it off in the mail. I had a 15 inch PB and it had issues while i was in iraq first time in 5 years i had any issue with one of the 5 Macs that I owned. I called them told them i was in iraq and they sent me an upgraded 17 inch before i even sent mine back to them. I got the 17 inch and it was great. Now before anyone goes and says oh how reliable is that to have 2 different notebooks in a row have issues, relize this is durring the intel switch and they had a limited number of notebooks left with PPC’s. So the only isue that it had was that it could not power a usb hard disk. I took it to the apple store when I got home and guess what they did. they gave me the brand new 17 inch MBP. I mean they even gave me 2 gigs of ram because i ahad upgraded that. So ease of use, Capabilities, and some of the best customer service i have ever had in my life, i think is worth the extra few dollars for the hard ware. and regardless of releases no one is forced to buy the new OS to make things work. It will only make things work better. That is why it is an upgrade. Vista does not offer anything that I would see as an upgrade. DRM on DVD’s WTF. again it is all in what you feel is best for you.

I read through all these fighting comments and had a lot of fun.

I have been using MS ever since 3.1 came out, but to be honest, I was always in love with the Mac… I actually bought 3 different Mac computers in the past 10 years, each ending up a gift to a relative or just dumped to the trash, simply because although I always felt Mac was superior, I could hardly use it for anything - because of compability issues. Liked it or not, I had to use MS for various things, from work to gaming…

This is the 4th time I actually contemplating (more or less decided) buying a Mac again - a Macbook Pro. I will use it with Bootcamp and Parallel, so I’ll have Windows Vista on it to play all the games I want, and to use it in my company, which has MS environment, and I’ll use Tiger (and when it comes out, Leopard) because I love it… No more conflict…

“Life is very short, and there’s no time for fussing and fighting my friend”….

Look guys i use both windows and macintosh apart of my work and for home use. The operating systems are different. Im glad windows and mac are different in vision goals and design. Because if they weren’t there would be no competion and a mono operating system would evolve into existence with no inovvation or change. So neither is the victor!!! and lets hope it stays that way so mac and windows keep trying to out compete each other and we get better value for money

** Remeber if your happy with your current os don’t change it!!!!!***

you are all dancing around the obvious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is clear which os is better they both have similar features but mac always is more stable. And when you see the similar apps on each os next to each other it is clear that the os x version looks better. And since mac has inproved on apps they will be allot stabler then the windows version of the app. know lets not forget the price how much is all the os x version from when xp came out to leopard compared to xp professional and vista professional or what ever is the top software pack then don’t forget to add on the years of bying anti virus software and seeing technicions to get windows once you have every veriable taken and accounted for you will see that mac os x is supperior to windows still os x panther is a lot more stable then ms windows xp with sp2 and beleve me i know
also i would just like to piont out ms never made ms-dos the paid for the rights for q-dos (quick and dirt operating system) and changed a few thing and called it ms-dos this trait continues on with all version of windows. all ms fans will have to come to the truth ms don’t make good or half descent software, bill gates is not a smart man nor a good programmer/coder, ms-word is not a good word editor as it crashes is slow and makes unnecessarily big files (with bbedit i have shrunk a 390kb Doc down to 39kb this is 1000% efficient and all i said for it to do is remove bogus code).
in short move over bill gates take your money and leave before you become bankrupt cling to old values

Right now I’m running an apple 800mhz G3 ibook with a 384mb of ram and a 30 gig hard disk. its about 5 years old. Oh yeah its also got Mac OS X TIGER (10.4.7) running on it. The most recent OS availible for mac. And it runs perfectly.

Dont try running Windows latest OS on a PC thats 5 years old. It seems that micrsoft expected everyone to empty they’re savings acounts on new hardware to support their $300+ Operating system. in order to “get the best experience” from windows vista, you must have:

A Windows Vista Premium Ready PC includes at least:
1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor1.
1 GB of system memory.
Support for DirectX 9 graphics with a WDDM driver, 128 MB of graphics memory (minimum)2, Pixel Shader 2.0 and 32 bits per pixel.
40 GB of hard drive capacity with 15 GB free space.
DVD-ROM Drive3.
Audio output capability.
Internet access capability.

This set of system requirements are what is required for everything in windows vista, including the new aero graphic interface. Those are pretty high.
This is gonna suck.

Here’s how I look at the two operating systems and their usage:

Gaming = Windows XP

For everything else in life…like literally every single aspects of life ranging from family oriented to academia to “having fun”…its OS X Tiger all the way…and soon Leopard.

I have been a Windows user since 3.1, and went through windows 95, then 98, 2000, XP, and now have tried out the RC1 Vista…then for the first time ever un-installed an operating system entirely (Vista), and reverted back to XP for gaming purposes.

For the first time ever, I was downright disgusted to see an operating system use up 584Mb of memory to just run the operating system’s GUI (Aero Glass), which although admittedly is “fancy”, it does not come close to justifying that much usage of one’s resources. Now without getting too technical, I have 2Gb of ram, so i was no where near the danger zone of running Vista at its full potential, infact all was smooth. Now just for a test, I had launched Photoshop, iTunes ( with an empty library),and Firefox at the same time, and this was consuming about 1.1Gb of memory. It cannot possibly get more worse than this IMO. Either there is a major memory leak in Vista’s core OS, or this “Aero Glass” is highly unoptimized. Trying
to play a game in this operating system is a horror all by itself, so i wont get into that. I will however give the benefit of the doubt to M$, as this was the RC1 version, and could *maybe* have be fixed in the RTM version. M$ is already reading the first service pack for Vista for god’s sakes!…

Now I am one of the few lucky ones out there when I say I have 2Gb of Ram, because many if not most people are still believe it or not in the 512Mb range, speaking from a global perspective having family and friends using XP. Beneath all that fancy glass effects though, Vista is as naked and exposed to security threats as XP was/is. Anything that Vista can do now…Tiger has already done, and I can confidently say even in a visually better way. OS X has always utilized memory very much efficiently, and therefore is much faster than an equivalent PC running windows. The only real purpose like I mentioned that I still use Windows is for gaming, as Ill admit OS X is not even close to being a full fledged gaming platform as XP is.With the arrival of Bootcamp however, that too, has changed, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone IMHO to be compelled to using a Windows driven PC.

My new C2D Macbook Pro is more sleeker, sexier, faster, cooler, and simpler to use than any other PC laptop out there in the market now, and knowing Apple, in the market anytime. Period. And all that is backed up by a top notch Operating system that is just as jaw droppingly beautiful (even when compared to Vista) as it is productive. What more can I say…Ill take Tiger or Leopard over XP or Vista any day thank you very much, as I would rather channel my time, energy and dedication of what ever work I tend to accomplish towards a company that I know and can rely on, as they make both my hardware and software.

[...] digg it Leopard VS. Vista: The Showdown [...]

I used Windows for my entire upbringing on computers. I spent a LAAAARGE sum of my life on computers. I never really touched a mac till I was 18. OSX had just come out.

I started working on a mac for graphics and stuff. I started to fall in love with it.

Why? It’s just better. 5 seconds on a Mac won’t tell you much. Im not gonna say that kinda ****. BUT, if you do spend some “quality” time with it, and give it a chance, you really start to realize that this is a much more refined system than Windows. Yes I still use Windows. Yes some things are better on it, like gaming. But honestly, everything else just works better and more harmoniously with a Mac. Even programming rocks on a mac, python anyone?

Anyway, the war will never stop, but the real Mac haters truly haven’t given mac a chance.

The more I use mac, the less I use windows. And everytime I get on Windows, it feels cold, lifeless, and dull.

I use Mac since I am 8 years old, since the MacOs 7 version, I watched it grow, and I really never since then wanted to try PC’s because I loved it…
I grew up and when I went to school I was obligated to use PC’s..
I was taught to hate PC’s so I never payed attention to the Computer class.

I’m 18 years old now, and I work.. if you ask me what I use, or what I recommend, I’ll say Mac..

Why?

Becuase, I’ve seen windows xp evolution to vista, and trying to be equitable, It doesn’t do much the upgrade for the price, just like the Microsoft Suite (word, excel, power point, etc.) its so much the same, but you have to pay for the year version… That far, I still use 2003, because I find the same in using every version.
Its a lot better to pay for your adobe upgrade software which proves that is worth the money on every single update..

So I love Macs, but I love them because I coudn’t find anything in Windows to love it… is that simple, I even had a PC, just a week after I bought it, It was already infected with virus (a serious problem with PC’s) which it has decreased on the Vista system, but just a bit, now It just warns you before you get it…

I don’t hate PC’s, I’ll say it and I also sadly have to say I use one, but it still has a lot of things to get fixed.

On both systems you have to pay, but you just have to see and study which is worth the money, because money-succes relation is what we’re looking for, not a war beetwen 2 OS.

[...] Ummm…excuse me, but freaking [...]

In 2006 I bought my first Intel based Imac 20″, because who wants all that clutter of wires? It just needs 1 (power) if you use the wireless mouse and keyboard. What were pc makers around the world thinking?

I admit, I bought it because it could run Windows XP using bootcamp.
Fondeling around the Apple OS X which was all new to me wasn’t an option. It would take too much time for me to get used to it.

But I like trying out software installs, and everybody knows installing/uninstalling in a windows environment is actually asking for trouble.

After my 5th reinstall in a year I’ve had it with Microsoft.

(Even fresh XP installs do sometimes give errors, I even kept sequences of driver/softw installs to make sure everything would install at its best, but I never got a 100% error free environment - just try shutting down windows when you have like 5 programs running, lol)

So I pushed myself to the Apple OS X environment, and forced myself to work in it, and get to know every bit of it.
Wow, I mean really WOW (I think Bill thought of that word when he was working in the new OS X)

I mean this is an incredible environment to work with. Personal as professional. I fell in love with OS X. Of course I would never think of buying a non-intel Apple machine. But man (or woman) this is the future in computing.

Today more then a year later, my friends, collegues, family have switched to Apple and OS X Tiger.

Why? Because it’s the best around for everyday use.
Even my 85 year old grandfather who never used a pc before uses a Macbook duo core with Apple’s OS X. And he likes it… :)

Microsoft at this time has 3 products I still use: WIndows 2003 Server and Office 2007 which I run in an XP environment on my Macs using Parallels. In 1 click I start xp in the background, i use it for office, that’s it. Even RDC I do in OS X using CORD (way faster)

So buying a new pc? BUY A MAC….I bet Steve Jobs could easily implement a 100% money back guarantee and wouldn’t even jeapordize Apples financial future.

About Vista? lol well, 2 words…’The End’
(tested Vista Ultimate)

O yeah, right Macs don’t need antivirus programs. They suggest to get one not to pass on viri to windows users. Sure, like we care :)

Leopard vs. Windows Vista ~ Chris PirilloLeopard Vs. Windows Vista by Chris Pirillo My name isn’t Chicken Little, ….. regardless of whether Vista sucks or is the next sliced bread. …

It’s all about preference, what works for one may not work for another. Both OS’s work great. But I prefer OS X over Windows.

“It’s amazing how illiterate some people are.”