Is Traditional School a ‘Must’?

Hello,

I think schools teach much more than just information by rote. They teach how to socialize, interact and communicate with others as well as learning how to be a good citizen, perform research so one can keep learning after they leave school and perhaps give them exposure to a wider variety subjects, activities and interests that might not otherwise be available in a home school environment.

I remembered an interesting message thread on homeschooling here in the Lockergnome Help Forum that might be of interest.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

I have heard many people say that the real lessons begin when you actually leave formal education.

School cannot prepare you for life, they just feed you loads of facts that in the outside world are of no use to you at all.

I agree with Om, go out and do stuff then go to school if it suits what you are currently doing and can actually boost your knowledge of a certain subject.

I have been in the “old school” thinking of, education-education-education, for quite some years, it is only until recently that I have come across “educated” people that do not how to communicate, interact with other people and do not have an ounce of common sense. It seems sending kids to a bricks and mortar institutions turns them into zombies.

They are unable to think for themselves.

Equifinality.
We are what we know.

I teach high school in a traditional public school and I also provide consulting and tutoring services to parents who home school so I see both sides. There is no clear answer. Some parents are educationally, socially, and economically equipped to homeschool and some clearly are not. Similarly, some children are socially and mentally equipped for home schooling and some are not.

Homeschooling elementary aged children isn’t too much of a stretch for a parent who graduated from high school proficient in reading and basic math. But once children reach middle school age, and certainly high school age, the equation changes and it isn’t just about the parent’s ability to teach subjects like science and math. It is also a question of the child’s changing social needs. This is why so many parents give up on home schooling between grades 7 and 9. And it is why I’ve become a busy consultant to parents who need help preparing lessons and/or additional tutoring for their children.

As a classroom teacher, I see anywhere from 5-10 students a year who are in their first or second year back in a school setting. Most of them are a blend of social backwardness and advanced maturity. On the one hand they have trouble integrating into groups, are the last children chosen for teams, are often the butt of jokes and pranks, and a basically clueless about social dynamics. On the other they tend to be more reliable, serious about doing good work, and responsible – all of which makes them stand out in a positive way to adults and a not so positive way to their peers.

And then there’s the question of where they stand educationally. They tend to be good readers and lousy at math. Their science and social studies knowledge is all over the spectrum. They tend to have poor critical thinking skills going along with whoever they perceive to be the authority. In short, I think it is an absolute disaster for most parents to homeschool most child beyond 5th or 6th grade. Further, I think it is in the best interests of society for state governments to require home schooling parents to follow the same curricular standards that schools do and that they set minimum education requirements for the parents.

i guess this depends on what kind of learner you are..the standard school system isn’t one size fits all. oftentimes, conventional schools teach students stuff they’ll never use later in life… then there’s the grades, grades, grades, competition, memorize than forget for the rest of your life untill exams, then its cram, cram, cram and forgot all over again

oh, and there’s the annoying age hierarchy… freshmen to seniors, students to teachers, students to principal… and I know some smart kids who could teach a thing or two to their teachers

… and school can’t teach everything/don’t let students learn what they want to learn (hierarchy)..for example, i’m into computer science but my school doesn’t offer it.. and physics, but I have to wait until next year to learn it.. same for art class :(

in the mean time, I’m trying to teach myself.. too bad I’m so lazy and i’m mentally drained from school work/homework, etc…

so I think self learning or something like homeschooling/unschooling is a great alternative for some students. i would ditch school if i were allowed…and if I made the effort to become less lazy and more passionate towards learning.

Throw in a few words. Coming from a lot of experience with ADHD starting with adults, then adolescents, then families, so here goes. First ADHD actually is part of a character trait, with a relatively arbitrary boundary to be a clinical diagnosis. People with the trait do well in school if turned on by the teacher or if their special talents are recognized. For instance, girls who are good readers get a lot of recognition; those with math skills do not. Traited persons need to find their “groove” and public schools frequentlly have the time, patience or programs to do this. OK. What are the traits. What shows up is polarization to the top or bottom of many life areas. Memory is all-or-none; socialization/leadership is hign or low (leader or loner), creativity is frequently present as is seeing outside the box, etc. Traits are inherited along a dominant pattern but reflect a process affected by several genes. This dominance plus societal changes seem to have a net positive effect although a few are severely penalized. Bipolar, anxiety and substance abuse issues are not uncommon and tend to prolong failure to find adaptive pattterns in adulthood. By the way trait pattens are equally prevalent in girls as well as boys although the emergence recognition of this is partly the result of the boundary conditions placed the diagnosis of ADHD in children. Could go on about all this but my focus is home schooling. I have frequently recommended this to families where they can let their child proceed into his/her area of interest and thus establish some sense of personal worth. There is a clinker here: traited persons do not take orders or directions easily and is the home teacher is the traited parent we have the potential for oppositional behaviors., So one must identify the traited parent and help them understand the nature of the genetic heritages that are present and how this migth influence the learning process. One other comment: traited persons are frequently drawn to activities which are multi-tasking and challenging. Besides successfully becoming doctors and lawyers, they really take to computer programming and computer gaming.

Traditional schooling is essential. Apprenticeships (indentured servitude) was the traditional schooling. Indentured servitude was the traditional schooling for 80 to 90 per cent of all immigrants at the Revolution. And of course, apprenticeship and indentured servitude was slavery for a period of time.
Education has to do with learning. Adherence to a system for the sake of an ideal, i.e., advancement in science etc., will not promote learning except in retrospection.
Change for the sake of the new sound a lot like the brownshirts, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, or any other promotional organization that will advance us beyond ‘traditional learning.’

I am a high school teacher and part of my day I work with a population that could be labeled as “gifted” (I teach AP classes) and frankly, schools do kind of suck. There are plenty of awful teachers and school so bent of giving kids a chance that they break down the motivation of students that are actually have any desire to learn. In order to create a fake environment of encouragement, they water down expectations so any bit of work is considered high quality. That said, I’ll be sending my kids to formal schooling. It is not just that our society demands it (go ahead and tell any major employer that you studied up on the Internet rather than have a degree from a known program… let me know how it turns out… not that there aren’t exceptions, but come on) but frankly, there is this myth that because some people happen to have a thurst for knowledge and can happily use the Internet as a self-driven tool that many or even a few students can do that. The gifted teacher is not just good at content (although that helps!), they are a good motivator and builds a culture of learning. That is difficult, maybe impossible, to create on the ‘tubes.

I went to Catholic schools my entire life and this year my mom finally agreed to let me switch to an online school! I love it I can get the same work done in about half the time as in a regular school. When I left my high school i was junior but in my online school I’m a senior (partly because my HS required more credits than the state)

Have seen the home-schooled & public school students…since I have subbed in public schools & met students who were home-schooled or private schooled. My vote is for home-school or private schools hands down. The biggest reason is that someone cared enough to spend time with the student to make sure they would excel. Plus… someone was willing to pay money to make sure their child got more than a boring/non-productive public school education.

As for public schools…best way to massively waste tax money…get teenage girls pregnant & teach students how not to think for themselves. If public schools are so great…why does the average teacher last three years & can’t wait to get out of the classroom? If you want your education dollars to go further…shut down all public K-12 schools…put that money into public colleges/universities & private schools.

I just want to testify to the idea of non-traditional schooling. I entered college at 16 and was homeschooled all my life before that. I was doing advanced subjects at a very young age not because I was pressured, but because it was the rate at which I learned. Slowing down/speeding up the natural rate a kid learns because they’re in a huge class and you have to teach to the median doesn’t help anyone, it just leads to boredom and/or discouragement IMO. Having been homeschooled I have a unique set of skills that I use to this day, because I wasn’t studying to pass TESTS I was studying things I was interested in, like the arts, math and lots of TV shows, lol.

I think I had a unique upbringing that had some downsides, but the positives are too many to count.

That Om guy doesn’t know much about the schools anymore. In my school ( a rural community) starting in Kindergarten you get two days a week of computers it continues like that until 6th grade. In 6th grade you get a marking period of computers every day for a hour. Once you get to high school you get computers for a full year, but that’s only in freshmen year. After freshmen year you can take a advanced computer course, and after that class you can specialize and pick a certain program in our Vo-Tech center. Computers are very widely available in public schools.

Ok

After read this I going to subscribe to K12. Really , I have a job, working 10 hours every day and I don’t have to much time and I don’t have enough money right know. Thanks Pirillo. XD

A homeschool requires work from both the parent and the child. This would probably not work with the busy single parents of todays world. It also requires motivation to succeed from the student.

Speaking as someone who did not complete college, I think it comes down to this.

1) Make darn sure to finish high school or the equivalent from a home school situation. It’s just a matter of completing something critical to being taken seriously in this world.

2) Explore college as an option, but to do not drink the kool-aid entirely. I have told a few college graduate friends of mine that had they learned plumbing, they would be working right now. Their college educations are proving pretty useless for their selected majors.

So I guess this translates into choosing college if you know that the career path you select can translate into both employment and self-employment. And yes, plumbing, can. So can being a teacher, as Chris P. will tell you. :)

Some people will find tremendous success choosing to further their education outside of the home. Others still, such as myself, have made their way in the world by the seat of their pants. It is more difficult that settling on a college degree, but it’s more exciting as well. Life in the Hartley household is never boring, that is for sure! :)

Thankfully I have a gift for self-educating myself. Back that up with tenacity and nothing will stop you in the long run.

I think it is important to realize that not everyone wants to be a mindless cog tossed into society. Some of us have the audacity to say “no” to a traditional, crappy 9-5 job. that we never wanted in the first place.

Do not misunderstand my point here. I am not saying all people working 9-5 jobs fit the previous description of being mindless. However, if you are stuck in a job you hate, chances are you are walking into the office with a blank, “mindless” look in your eyes. So to that degree, you might as well describe yourself as a cog…being the mindless stare is already in place.

Never be afraid to dream. I have been teaching myself how to break free of the typical mindless crap society throws at us for years. Instead, I spent my energy learning everything I could about subjects that interested me. From there, the income followed.

And yes, to this very day I make it a point to learn at least one new thing without fail. Hopefully this comment is free of too many typos, I am fighting a bit of a fever. Yes, being self-employed means working no matter how you feel. Adds to the excitement. ;)

Okay, found one typo already…argh.

“It is more difficult that settling on a college degree, but it’s more exciting as well. Life in the Hartley household is never boring, that is for sure! :)”

Should have been ‘than” rather than “that”.

The letter near the end of your writing, yeah, that one, I stopped reading it right around “I am 18 years old.”

Let me tell you all, school is great, and if you still plan to drop out, at least learn to write and spell. That way you can make your own “Will work for food” sign.
Coffee33

Okay whoever posted that comment under my name was obviously not me. I have no idea who or why someone would do that.

I have just recently pulled my daughter (10th grade) from traditional school and enrolled her in the K-12 program and only wish I would have done it sooner. It’s absolutely fantastic. Especially when compared to the tragically broken educational ’system’ in California.

I am from India. In India, we have a very ‘elaborate’ education system. In fact we have multiple educational models followed across the country. The most popular ones are CBSE and ICSE. CBSE system consists of 10 years of basic schooling in Maths, Science (Chemistry, Physics, Biology), English + optional languages (Hindi and regional languages), Social studies (History, Geography, Civics), other subjects (moral science, art work etc.)

At the 10th year, the kids have to go through a wall of fire to pass. The percentage scored here would determine what the kid can learn for the next 2 years. Where we have streams of Science (Maths, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, English) – this stream makes you eligible for trying our engineering or medical further studies, Maths (Maths, Chemistry, Physics, English) – this stream allows you to take only engineering, Commerce, Humanities.

After the 10+2 years of schooling, kids get into colleges to take up courses based on the 12th year exam scores. For example, a person who is excellent in English cannot go for BA Literature in college just because he didn’t clear his Chemistry paper in 12th.

I was one such student. My primary loves were English language and Computers. When I realized that the educational system wouldn’t allow me to pursue further studies in my fav subjects just because I was not good in cracking chemistry, I had no choice but to drop out and make my own path to a career.

Setting off on such an adventure is bad enough and doing it in India makes it only worse. In India, a drop out is viewed as equal to a rapist or murderer. Finally fighting all odds, I started building my life with the bricks that were thrown at me.

I had this stubborn idea that I will compete with qualified professionals instead of starting my own business or try my luck in the world of movies (some of the ideas thrown at me when I dropped out). I wanted to prove to myself that I am no less than a qualified engineer who comes out of the college.

I first decided on what I need to become in 2 years time and started working in small roles in small companies locally. In the meanwhile, I also started taking up 6 month diplomas in areas of work that would help me get the next job. After a series of job hopping and working many months of 22 hour days, I started getting breaks in bigger IT giants.

Today, I am married and fairly well settled with a tech-managerial role in an MNC that earns me enough to put me beyond the middle class working population. I still have a long way to go and my two year goal pattern is still in place. But, I don’t do 22 hour days anymore.

Though, I wouldn’t recommend my career/education to the next generation. It would be too risky and too tiring. Traditional education gives a person the safety net and assurance that doesn’t come with treading the untrodden paths like i did…

If I have a chance, I hope to change the educational system here so that everyone gets a chance in life. Like I did….

Check out http://www.unschoolingamerica.com – I have 3 kids and we are considering homeschooling for them right now…… Great topic!

Is Traditional School a ‘Must’? No, it’s just a ‘Mustard’.

As a educator myself, I’m quite torn on this issue. On one hand, the masses feel that a public education is a cookie cutter degree, and most do not understand that it was always supposed to be a general issue program that would lead to some other type of instruction for specialized labor or profession.

As for private and home schooling institutions, the widespread feeling about both of them is that the education is on a topsy turvy scale of how much the actual teacher knows, but it is counterbalanced by the idea that the classroom only has a handful students, making learning more intimate and also based on the needs and wants of the student, not just the state requirements.

As a teacher, I must look at both institutions for what they not only offer their students, but also their teachers. Clearly, a public school gig requires a great deal of study, professional development, time working from home, extra meeting time and sometimes 12 hour days. However those are weighed out for me by only a handful of amenities: Health Care, bare, but solid pay, a retirement fund, and a union that offers legal defense and a chance to meet with other professionals from time to time.

The opportunity to teach at most private schools means you do not get many of those. Definitely not health care, or solid pay. What most people do not realize is that these jobs do not support families, they are primarily staffed by secondary earners in a family setting, with someone else in the family acting as the primary breadwinner.

The big qualifier for private schools is based on the following adage: you get what you put into something. When your family is making a sacrifice for you to go to school, the parents obviously feel that stretch, and the kids also know that their parents are ponying up for a better institution. So many days I see kids graduate high school with no understanding as to how their public schools are funded. This comes from the idea that the students don’t care about a “free program” and their parents didn’t care about it when they were kids and hardly see the benefit of it for them today. However, that’s what they did when they were kids, and its a good place to ship them off for the day.

My big issue with this problem does not come from stigma of public or private schooling, but I want teaching to stay a respectable profession that can continue to support a family, something that private schools do not offer currently and probably not in the future.

I believe the sole purpose of No Child Left Behind was an effort to close the public schools, and give vouchers to students to go to private schools – and teachers would be forced to follow with no benefits and less pay. How would you feel if you were a public social worker and the government said you would get no benefits? Or a doctor? However, I am a teacher who has a non academic background and I must say that I would return to the workforce elsewhere if I had to face teaching at a private school.

Let me end with this statement though: I see first hand the problems with public schools, and there are a great deal of them. First off: as a techie/geek/nerd, I am one of the few teachers embracing technology in the classroom. While some around me are, my profession is filled with laggards that feel like they do not need to change the way they do things. WRONG. The students we teach today are a dozen times evolved through tech than I was at their age, so let’s not get started on teachers that have 15 years experience on me.

Schools must embrace technology and redesign their curriculums if they want to stay around. If they don’t, we will have to find different possibilities to educate our youth, and if we don’t, we will all fall behind as a culture.

The ideas we can build on would be specialized small schools, a paperless school model, and real world scenarios for those small programs.

That’s about it from me on this issue.

I think it’s still important to go to a school for socialization reasons, but I think that’s about where the benefits of public school end. Public schools truly do provide horrendous learning environments, at least at the high school level. At the collegiate level, there are some other benefits to attending a public school, such as lower tuition and programs that are designed for you to take advantage of.

I think the quote was horrible advice. That’s a good way to find yourself being held back a couple years. You’re much better off figuring out what you want to do *while* you attend school. And if it suddenly dawns on you that you want to start your own business while you’re in school, and you’re confident that you can make it work, then you can go for it. Or you could decide to finish up with your degree/diploma, and then give entrepreneurship a try. But waiting around until that epiphany strikes you just doesn’t sound like a very good idea. Frankly, I think that you’ll be a lot more likely to realize what you want to do with your future while you’re attending school and trying different things out.